My World Gathering
Ralph's thoughts . . .
The World Gathering has sparked a few interesting discussions amongst my family. The following are some of Dad's thoughts . . .
It sort of seems simple to me (a dangerous sign maybe). Early quakers existed in a time and framework in which belief in God and general christianity were an integral part of their existence, so they spoke and thought in these terms. To me as an atheist quaker these parts are more or less irrelevant. What's important to me are the other things they found and sought and said and did. The ideas and actions behind the "god words". I long ago became quite comfortable hearing ministry in meeting in language that could grate but is best to just let flow by and wait to see if it still speaks to me - it often does. There are many aspects of Quakerism I think are very very important ideas. One can express them in god words or other words - doesn't really matter. The only danger in the god words are that people can end up thinking that's the important bit - I think they are wrong and I am quite happy to say so and discuss it. For me this is just the same as George Fox saying
- the church building and the minister are not the important bits,
- no creed,
- seeking after truth rather than thinking you know it all,
- consensus as a way of making important decisions,
- that of god in every man,
- people are basically good,
- silence (it's so much more inclusive than speach or songs),
- ministry coming out of a silence and being spoken into a silence . . .
Oh dear this is getting longer. . .
I'm an atheist. For me that means "I dont beleive in god" simple. It doesnt mean I couldn't conceive of there being one - I just dont believe there is. It's not something I have a choice about - I don't beleive in fairies or martians - new evidence could easily change my mind. That is in no way a problem. New evidence on martians seems unlikely but entirely possible but on fairies even more unlikely...
I like your idea of let's see what love can do but I also find it useful and interesting to discuss what values and ideas we do have in common and where we disagree. In disucssing why we beleive action A or B is right or wrong we may progress. I think it is important not to just dismiss people as bad. Understanding the reasons behind actions always gives you a better chance of changing the actions or of having your views and actions changed. Either could well be a step forward.
Dr Ralph Pugmire
(Anon): its interesting isnt it- i cant make up my mind about that sort of thing... on the one hand, a belief in searching for truth, rather than thinking you'v found it (perhaps combined with the idea that you can never know anything for sure as it has to come through your senses which can easily be tricked etc.) can lead on to the idea that it is wrong to inflict your opinion on others, as they have as much 'right' to their beliefs as you do to yours. Yet it provokes the question: what if their beliefs conflict with yours directly? where does the ballance lie? and especially if you believe in heaven and/or hell how can you not try to "save" them? i think both "let us then try what love will do" and your ideas on the importance of discussion help to resolve this. "love" and openness to discussion, while keeping the above ideas in mind, allow you to continue your search for truth and allow others to do so as well by considering in what ways your ideas fit or dont fit with them. (11/22/05)
(Anon): i always find that interesting as well, that sometimes in discussion with Christians they take my admission that i could be wrong in a way almost as proof that i am wrong, while they 'know' they are right. They dont have all the answers either but they have 'faith'. But that is perhaps one of my deepest beliefs, that to think you 'know' can be dangerous and/or foolhardy, and one of my biggest problems with 'Christianity' as i see it. You are constantly coming across new evidence which must be taken into account, and you must be open to considering it and coming up with your reasoned conclusions. This cant really be done with a creed. There's nothing wrong with beliefs being fluid or flexible- i think its even a good thing, -yet its easy to get caught up in defending your beliefs just for the sake of it. Atheism for me i think allows this fluidity and helps to stop me getting bogged down with a certain idea. (11/22/05)
ria: (sorry, those were me.. i guess if im going to attempt to speak my truth i should own up to it - there are u happy leithy?) (: (12/04/05)